It must be pointed out that rulers are rulers at the permission of God. That does not say or even imply that whatever ruler happens to be in power at any given moment is in fact doing the will of God. In fact, there are many instances pointed out in the Bible that state specifically the Israelites fell into bondage to evil nations specifically because they had turned their backs on God.

It is extremely disengenuous to twist that to mean a ruler is doing the will of God simply because he/she is in power. Being in power has nothing to do with doing the will of God.

Of course not. According to Christian theology, rulers like all people, are subject to the LORD’s laws. They have authority to judge and punish; they certainly have no authority to idolate or blaspheme or adulterate.

1. The Old Testament verses quoted by Michael were to the rulers of Israel, specifically for the Israelites and no one else. God’s intent, stated in those passages, was to keep the Israelites pure and away from the influence of foreign “gods” (more properly, religions). It was not a demand to start at one end of the world and conquer, subjugating everyone in their path and beheading anyone who disagreed with them.

2. It must be pointed out that rulers are rulers at the permission of God. That does not say or even imply that whatever ruler happens to be in power at any given moment is in fact doing the will of God. In fact, there are many instances pointed out in the Bible that state specifically the Israelites fell into bondage to evil nations specifically because they had turned their backs on God.

It is extremely disengenuous to twist that to mean a ruler is doing the will of God simply because he/she is in power. Being in power has nothing to do with doing the will of God.

I took the liberty of scanning part of a chapter from the book I quoted in the original entry, ‘Salvation is From the Jews’. It’s titled “Jews, God, Gentiles and Demons” The author, Roy Schoeman, was a Jew who converted to Catholicism. You might find this helpful.

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So why did Jesus demand the death penalty for idolatry and blasphemy (not to mention other offenses)? And do not forget that Jesus Himself lived under Old Testament Law.

Michael, where exactly did you get the idea that Jesus demanded the death penalty for idolatry and blasphemy?

Jesus’s own words to the Jewish authorities.

Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Then the LORD said to Moses: “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.”

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

Since “paradise” is a spiritual sphere, what do you think it should be like? Having sex with 72 virgins and boys?

Are you implying that a paradise with sex in it is not a praradise at all?

When Christians are at the point of death, we still don’t cut off the heads of our captors, we pray for them. This is a qualitative difference.

You obviously never heard of thge Saint Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. Christ’s own Vicar, Gregory XIII, actually struck a medal in commemoration of this event.

Michael, Romans 13:3-4 is referring to civil law and the death penalty, not burning down embassies and beheading innocent bystanders. If you condemn the civil law St. Paul talked about, you have to condemn all civil law. The context of this passage is submitting to civil authority. Interesting to note that that is exactly what Abdul Rahman in Afghanistan is doing.

That is correct. Not once did I ever imply that Paul was referring to mob violence.

“Rulers are ministers of God, revengers to execute wrath on those who do evil. (Romans 13:3-4) They still have the authority to punish idolaters and blasphemers and adulterers and homosexuals.” What? First of all, who is “they” and what Christian countries do you know that “punishes” idolaters, blasphemers and adulterers and homosexuals? None? That’s what I thought.

“They” are rulers of nations, ministers of God, revengers to execute wrath upon those who do evil.

Michael, where exactly did you get the idea that Jesus demanded the death penalty for idolatry and blasphemy?

The “point” of those OT laws wasn’t for the sake of legality/justice/vengeance; it was to show that sin demands recompense from a Perfect God. The law was for lawbreakers; therefore it revealed the Holiness and Perfection of God, that any offense sets off a ripple effect in the spiritual universe and demands to be set right; enter, Christ.

Jesus embodied the Law. He was perfect. He revealed the aspect of God that was often overlooked and unrecognized by the Jews, who were continually straying from their purpose and their God. Throughout Jewish history there was always a faithful remnant among the Jews who did what was right and fulfilled God’s law: the mercy of Abraham and Moses, who both prayed for God’s impending judgement to be diverted from God’s people, even though they were breaking God’s Law; Jeremiah who tried to warn the Jews that idolatry in the Temple would meet with disastrous results (the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel). There were always these kinds of “good Jews” who got it. Mercy and love were wrapped up in the Torah; the hardness of their hearts, according to Christ, is why God allowed the Jews to act as they often did, and because He had a mission they needed to fulfill. The perfection of the Law (OT, if you will) is Christ. He is how it ought to have been.

Since “paradise” is a spiritual sphere, what do you think it should be like? Having sex with 72 virgins and boys? I’m not going to try to show that the Islamic view of “paradise” is disordered; or that Mohammed was a violent man who allowed for deviant sexual behavior that thoroughly contradicted the moral Law. It’s a free country; I’ll leave that up to you.

Jesus said you will know a tree by it’s fruit. Look at the fruit of Islam and the fruit of Christianity. When Christians are at the point of death, we still don’t cut off the heads of our captors, we pray for them. This is a qualitative difference.

Michael, Romans 13:3-4 is referring to civil law and the death penalty, not burning down embassies and beheading innocent bystanders. If you condemn the civil law St. Paul talked about, you have to condemn all civil law. The context of this passage is submitting to civil authority. Interesting to note that that is exactly what Abdul Rahman in Afghanistan is doing.

“Rulers are ministers of God, revengers to execute wrath on those who do evil. (Romans 13:3-4) They still have the authority to punish idolaters and blasphemers and adulterers and homosexuals.” What? First of all, who is “they” and what Christian countries do you know that “punishes” idolaters, blasphemers and adulterers and homosexuals? None? That’s what I thought.

It’s always ironic that non-Chrisitans attempt to use the Bible, which they are not familiar with, to argue against Christians.

PS…. also, you might want to consider this:

[L]ove your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? (Matthew 5:44-46).

But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful (Luke 6:27-36).

These verses apply to how do deal with each other as individuals . Indivicuals certainly have no authority to go out and kill idolaters or blasphemers or adulterers or homosexuals.

Rulers are ministers of God, revengers to execute wrath on those who do evil. (Romans 13:3-4) They still have the authority to punish idolaters and blasphemers and adulterers and homosexuals.

Might also point out that Michael’s examples were all specific instructions to the Israelites, not to populations in general and certainly not to Christians (the Son came to fulfill the law, not destroy it).

You might try to get something in context next time, Michael.

And, BTW, I don’t find a whole bunch of “Golden Rule”- type verses in the Quran, but do find several verses that implore true believers to deceive non-believers until they can be subjugated, enslaved or killed…

Actually, to be more specific, they were instructions to the Israelite authorities . While the American government has no obligation to punish idolatry or blasphemy, that does not mean that idolatry or blasphemy are condoned in Christianity.

Furthermore, as Paul wrote, rulers are ministers of God, revengers to execute wrath on those who do evil (Romans 13:3-4) So rulers would have authority to punish idolaters and blasphemers with execution.

Michael, interesting passages. Keep in mind first that those are old testament passages. I’m just glad I’m a Christian and don’t have to worry about that by direct association.

One of the basic tenets of Christianity is that Jesus is God.

So why did Jesus demand the death penalty for idolatry and blasphemy (not to mention other offenses)? And do not forget that Jesus Himself lived under Old Testament Law.

By the way, what should paradise be like?

You might try to get something in context next time, Michael.

And, BTW, I don’t find a whole bunch of “Golden Rule”- type verses in the Quran, but do find several verses that implore true believers to deceive non-believers until they can be subjugated, enslaved or killed…

[L]ove your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? (Matthew 5:44-46).

But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful (Luke 6:27-36).

However, Israel was always off mingling with other religions to the point where there were human sacrifices in the Jewish temple by the king of Israel himself (King Zedekiah, who was Josiah’s son). Those verses weren’t meant to say Israel should seek out every pagan nation and destroy them. The death penalties of Israel were rarely carried out; they were often cited as being the level of perfected justice if such occurrences would happen. Parents didn’t kill their children for disobedience, for example, but children knew it was justice in the sense that a Holy God requires some recompense for sin.

If you’re using that to justify Islam, I would point you toward the 72 virgins and “boys of perpetual freshness” as a means of paradise as being pretty sick.

Also, Jesus said “You will know a tree by it’s fruit.” Look at how Judaism has evolved. Look at how Islam is still in it’s same barbaric embryonic stage.

At any rate, thank God I’m a Christian. I’d be interesting to hear what an orthodox Jew would say about some of the more disturbing old testament passages.

It was only a matter of time before someone mentioned this as a Bush failure. Right, one Christian on trial is FAR worse than all women being subverted and abused by the government, women being stoned to death for walking outside unaccompanied…. this is a MUSLIM problem, not a Bush problem. You liberals really do think Bush is God.. first he made Katrina, now this….

“I will instill terror into the hearts of Infidels, strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every fingertip.” (8:12)

“Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extend that they surrender and pay tribute.” (9:29)">
There are similar verses in the Bible.

Exodus 22:18-20 Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Leviticus 24:13-14 Then the LORD said to Moses: “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.”

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer … That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

Deuteronomy 13:12-15 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Or maybe, it took them 16 years to figure out he wasn’t going to re-convert to Islam.

Or maybe, most likely, he just ticked off someone who wanted to get back at him, so after 16 years this became important.

The secularists in our country decry the hypocricy of some Christians. What they don’t decry is the hypocricy of all religions (including secularism). Once a standard has been set, there will always be those who look for the ones who don’t meet the standard as proof that the standard is wrong. How sad, how stupid.