The following letter was written sent to the Los Angeles GLBT Community Center by a friend. He and his partner are gay. Along with their parents and extended family, they will vote Yes on Proposition 8.Here’s why.

We are two men in our mid-40s living in Los Angeles County. We have been in a committed relationship since October of 1996. We have no plans to get married and we believe our domestic partnership papers are sufficient to protect our rights. The recent ballot measure about gay marriage has prompted this letter from two-otherwise reasonable people in our community.

Growing up as a boy, I (John) was raised in small rural, San Joaquin Valley town just south of Stockton, CA. I am the oldest of four boys; I was raised on a dairy farm and attended the same schools that my mother and father attended. We had many of the same teachers. My mother and father have been married for 47 years.

My three brothers and I were raised in a “born again” Christian home, just like my nine aunts and uncles, by my grandparents who lived down the dirt road. In 1984, I left home and joined the LAPD. Now retired after 23 years of service, I still live in Los Angeles County. A lot has changed since I left home.

In June, 1991, I came out of the closet publicly, on CNN, after (the Rodney King arrest). To say this public announcement caused my family hardship is an understatement. I did not talk with my father for over 3 years and during one argument we were on the verge of physical violence and nearly went to blows.

Thank God we worked things out.

Today and since 1996, my parents gladly welcome my domestic partner Robert into their home. We have slept together in my parents’ home, they sat next to him at my retirement party in June, and my father has encouraged us to adopt children. I have nothing but respect and love for my mother and father.

My three younger brothers all got married and had kids.

I am the only gay child.

When my brother lost his wife to a massive stroke in 2007, I was the first person they called for help - John the cop – the gay brother from LA.

When another brother lost his wife after a long illness this year, I was the first person called for help during the crises. My deceased sister-in-law and brother are loyal born-again Christians, yet my partner and I have been welcomed into their home. I felt it an utter privilege to speak publicly at my sister-in-law’s funeral and publicly applaud her loving personality.

Before my presentation, my mom made a simple request of me: “Please don’t mention Robert as your domestic partner – it will offend a lot of people in the church.”

I warmly smiled, hugged my mom, and said, “Sure thing Mom, no problem.”

I was glad she made this request because my desire to honor my loving sister-in-law was more important than some shitty “politically correct” gay term.

By now, I am certain militant people in the GLBT community are screaming and yelling at the notion I would give in to such a request. People like this in our community just don’t get the meaning of the word tolerance.

My partner, Robert, was raised in a Catholic home. His large family from Mexico remains strongly tied to their Catholic upbringing. Robert’s mother would attend mass two and three times a day if she could drive to the church.

She never learned how to drive.

While our relationship has never been openly discussed, his family has NEVER-EVER acted in an unkind way towards me. Most of the time they take steps - overt steps to include me into their family’s activities. Yes, they know we sleep together, but our relationship is a non-issue with them.

Now that Prop 8 has come up, various people in our circle of family and friends have been asking lots of questions to us about the ads they see on TV. One topic that has come up multiple times in my conversations is the image of the ultra anti-Catholic Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, whose mockery of Christianity is legend in not only the gay community but mainstream society.

Above, two “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence” in their Catholic-mocking garb and make-up are photographed attending a mass offered by San Francisco Archbishiop George Niederauer, in the Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church.

As a gay man, I am well aware of their community activism and their fundraising. However, these good deeds are over shadowed by their continuous goading tactics of the religious community. It’s kind of like when a cop gets caught beating the crap out a suspect – nobody ever cares that he was a Medal of Valor winner. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have long made a practice of mocking the Catholic Church in general and religious women (nuns) in particular.

I find this type of action deeply offensive and disrespectful. Can someone from my own damn community explain how I can “justify” this type of behavior to my family, friends, or my partner’s Catholic family? While many in San Francisco and West Hollywood (and certainly the Sisters themselves) finds this amusing, my family, my partner’s family, and others do not.

My family lives only 50 miles from San Francisco. What if these assholes showed up at my parents’ church? What if these dirt bags showed up at Robert’s Mom’s church and sat next to his mother dressed like this? I can tell you what would happen – the gay community would have two very pissed off gay men just looking for a way to strike back!

So, our position on Prop 8 now is as follows: We encourage our family and friends around us to “vote their hearts, values, and religious beliefs.” Whatever they choose we will respect and honor their choice. As for us, we intend to Vote YES on Prop 8 because we dislike the bastards who misjudged us and our values as members of the GLBT community.

Both our families will also Vote YES on 8. People who engage in tactics like these do not reflect or values, beliefs, or speak for us. In fact, these activists do not represent the over 109,000 gay couples, raising approximately 50,000 kids, living out in “mainstream society” in California.

People like us.

Our country was founded on “religious freedom” and it has been written into our national and state constitutions. The pilgrims came to this country searching for religious freedom. Religion is rooted deeply into our national heritage and for anyone to think we are going to change this - well, it’s crazy for the GLBT community in California to believe that we are going to change these institutions without a fight, or by winning a few court battles.

The backlash we face is significant, but the activists never thought about this.

Churches have a RIGHT to worship in peace as they choose. NOBODY has a right to disrupt, intimidate, protest, or disrespect these services, no matter what their agenda is. While I may not agree with many of the Church’s doctrines and teachings, out of respect and tolerance I remain humble, quiet, and respectful during the proceedings.

I take great offense to anyone in MY community who demands the “right” to get married, yet thinks nothing of trampling the rights of others to worship in peace as they choose and believe.

Proposition 8 has forced us and others like us to make a choice: A choice between “going with the flow” and voting as gay men OR protecting our families values, their right to worship in peace, and their right to their religious institutions (like marriage).

We have news for many in our community: When our community condones, supports, or tacitly approves of such baiting tactics, then you can bet we will cross lines. We will protect our families and all the beliefs they hold dear regardless of what mainstream West Hollywood or San Francisco will be doing.

Prior to this ballot measure, we were really indifferent to the whole matter. However, as voters and as a gay couple it has now gotten personal. We are now being asked to make a choice between our families and our community.

We have news for all those angry-bitter people in our community; we choose to protect our family from the gay activists who threaten our families’ beliefs and religious institutions. This is a no-brainer.

While the Sisters are the most visible example, they are NOT the only examples in our community who engage in religious baiting tactics.

Come November 5th, 2008, it is time our leaders in the GLBT community (like you) come together, rethink these practices, and address this matter. Not only is this counterproductive, it is certainly not a good example of tolerance – the same tolerance we as a community demand. Over the years, I have found these actions offensive and it was for these reasons I avoided events where “the Sisters” appeared.

We do NOT make donations to this community organization.

GLBT community groups who engaged in this type of provocative action should be publically denounced by senior members of our community, GLBT churches, and the more mature members of the GLBT community. The improper actions of a few are not a good representation of the community as a whole. Yet, the actions of a few will probably lead to the ban on gay marriage in the State of California because they have consistently cross the lines of good taste and respect which has angered the well-funded and well-organized religious communities across the USA.

They have certainly alienated more responsible members of their own community, and caused us to cross the lines and vote YES on Prop 8.

Sincerely,

John & Robert
Southern California

1. I applaud your position. You bring class and integrity to Gay men and women in the State. I am offended by the outlandish behavior of a very small minority within the minority of Gays. Being content with life as you both seem to be is something these radicals will never find. Being gay has nothing to do with the behavior of these crazies, it is just spitting in the faces of people that think differently then they do. Their behavior is more attributed to anger then a true cause. Living in peace and harmony with your straight brothers and sisters is a true sign of real independence and understanding.

   Good Luck and I’m voting YES on 8 as well.

   Comment by Ray York — October 10, 2008 @ 8:35 pm

2. Wow. You GET it! A breath of fresh air - as I have been saying, where do one person’s rights end and mine begin? THANK YOU!! I am a straight married woman, actively engaged in the battle for YES on PROPOSITION 8, and I would be pleased to welcome you and your partner to dinner at my home, with my family; not because you are gay and I am straight, but because we would be able to have an honest and open conversation!

   Comment by Julie — October 10, 2008 @ 9:09 pm

3. What I see here is someone abandoning a chance to promote equality for all because he disagrees with the methods of certain people fighting for the same side. Just because there is someone that uses tactics you don’t agree with (though I am against Prop 8, I don’t agree with the actions of the example you’ve provided) doesn’t mean that side is altogether irrelevant.

   For example, there are some individuals who are for Prop 8 that advocate killing or imprisoning homosexuals. Obviously, there are plenty of people who are for Prop 8 who are far more tolerant than that. How then, if you do not condone the actions of the intolerant people, can you vote the same way?

   It all boils down to fairness. Limiting marriage based upon one’s sexual orientation is essentially legalizing discrimination and unconstitutional. As I see it, Prop 8 boils down to an issue of discomfort. Proponents of the prop are uncomfortable with the idea of same-sex couples, and if successfully passed, homosexuals are made uncomfortable by being regulated to secondary citizens without the full rights. If discomfort is inevitable, I’m going to choose the side that promotes fairness for all citizens.

   Support equality for all. Say no to Prop 8.

   Comment by Kevin — October 10, 2008 @ 10:09 pm

4. I guess this is all about “picking your battles in life”. This was not a battle our (GLBT) community should have gotten involved with in CALIF, nor decided to fight- it was a looser from the start (look at how the vote went in 2000! with 61% of the voters). Yea, we may have won some battles in court, but in the end we will loose the war (given the polls thus far). I know that GLBT’s living in “gay ghettos” in CA are not in touch with mainstream America becuase they DO NOT live on “mainstreet America” (where we do)-they live in their little protective bubbles in West Hollywood and San Fransisco. “Group Think” is well entrenched in these areas.

   The religous community is well funded and well organized and can pull assets from across the USA (and they are doing it!)-the gay community is only 10% and you don’t win elections with those kind of odds. Not to meantion they are trying to change traditions that are as old as this nation. The GLBT community in CA took on a national issue and belived the Catholic Church, Mormon Church, and all the other churches across the country would just sit on the side lines and watch thier institutions be swept asside in one state. That’s the ignorance in our community.

   The “no on 8″ people are now begging for money to run TV ads-yet we are in economic hard times-so they have a real problem now. The “no on 8″ people have openly admitted in The LA Times that they will probably loose if they don’t get money to run TV ads.

   A flat out constitutional ban is very-very difficult to over turn once it is law. The people in our community don’t get it and are (still) clueless about this fact. It is too late now to tell them this-it is now going to a vote. I suspect they (GLBT’s in CA) are going to get a big education in “democracy”, “constitutional law” and the importance of “religion” in the United States.

   It is our hope (Robert and I) that when this “mess” is over come Nov 5th, that “cooler heads” on bothsides of the issue will win the day. I know that this is NOT alway gonna work ALL THE TIME (after all look at the middle east), but it needs to start somewhere, so let it start with “mainstream people” like us and others.

   What ever happens BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE need to “stand down”, cool off, and each side MUST “self police” the crazies in thier respective communites. This may mean those “leaders” will have to take the “high roads” which are not always the most popular in their community. As a nation and state we have some real SERIOUS issues before us-like the Wall Street Melt Down, and protecting this nation from those who would destroy it-”gay marriage” is not even a good side topic to talk about given our current state and national concerns.

   I know that there are those who advocte killing gays and lesbians-that’s why I do NOT go to the Middle East and other places (that is common sense!) I would also not want to live next door to Fred Phelps. I really object to People like Rev. Fred Phelps (Topkea, Kansas) who makes it a habit of going around the USA with his signs that reads “DIE FAGS”. This wacho seems to show up all of the place. I know that his actions are not reflective of the greater Relgious Community and I know there are people trying to rien him in-yet, the GLBT community openly supports ‘goading” tactics and views them as acceptable-not all of us.

   Our community has forced us to “choose” and and we will choosed based upon our upbringing, values as reasonable people, and our families and hwo this could/would effect them as people and religous people. Both of us have younger members in our families and we know all too well that if passed, the crazies in our community will take it to the “next level” like they did back east in Mass. They will damand that it be tought in our public schools, so you will have more court battles, more TV Ads, and more of the same ol crap and we will loose sight of the REAL issues in our state and nation.

   Comment by John/Robert — October 11, 2008 @ 9:31 am

5. Oh John/Robert, I pity you so. You just don’t get it. You will vote to deny yourselves basic human rights — the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness — essentially because your religion shames you into self-hatred. Your article and comment here shows your self-contempt, not to mention your basic misunderstanding of what Prop 8 does — and does not.

   So let me be clear: Prop 8 denies you a fundamental right.

   Equally, it does not require anyone to do anything with which they disagree, whether observe same-sex couples in their wedded bliss, threaten tax-exempt status of churches, or require any teacher to present any material to any student — especially students whose parents disagree. The lies that the opponents of equal marriage rights have been spreading are despicable, let alone verifiably inaccurate.

   When Prop 8 goes down to defeat and marriage remains the law in California, there is not a single church that will be required to perform same-sex marriages. It was only 41 years ago that interracial marriage was legalized. After that, were any churches, many of whom vehemently disagreed with interracial marriage, forced to perform such ceremonies? No. In fact, the court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.” That’s the law, as it stands, today, and you want to change it to allow religious leaders to discriminate against a segment of society simply because of their beliefs.

   There’s a word for that type of person: bigot.

   Funny how you bring up the Westboro Baptist Church (let’s call them by how most people know them, though: the “God hates fags” fascists who want to blame every ill of society on homosexuals) in context of discussing the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Surely you must be able to see the parallels between your own opposition to Phelps and his ilk and the Catholics and their opposition to the Sisters — or should we all just agree that a few people do not represent the opinions of a group overall?

   I guess that when Phelps pickets the funerals of homosexuals, people sympathetic to homosexuals, even taunting the families of fallen soldiers at what must be a difficult time, we should just look the other way, and not hold religious leaders accountable when fringe elements act out upon the most extreme of ideas. Or is Phelps’ ‘goading’ acceptable to you because he’s “on the same team?”

   Put another way, were you straight and the other of you female, how would you feel if your right to marry someone of another race were denied because a segment of the overall population believed it to be wrong?

   The thrust of your argument, then, is that same-sex marriage is just too upsetting to your families and your church, and you’d rather have a fundamental right taken away from you than face your friends and relatives about who you are — and that includes who you will marry.

   I have news for you: you’re not “out.”

   Vote No on 8!

   Comment by Rocky — October 11, 2008 @ 2:32 pm

6. Voting yes because I don’t want no gay babies.

   Comment by Liem — October 12, 2008 @ 8:39 am

7. One, what do the Sisters have to do with Prop 8. I really don’t believe this is a real letter submitted by two gay men. If they are for real, I pity them and their views.

   Pulling the Sisters into this is a conservative attempt to scare people. As far as the statements go about the Sisters. Did it occur to you that the two sisters were attending mass because they are catholic? Perhaps you should get your facts straight.

   Prop 8 is no different when mixed races couldn’t marry. It is a civil rights issue. And to the jerk that says he doesn’t want gay babies. Guess what, the straights are having the gay babies stupid.

   Comment by Joey — October 12, 2008 @ 10:07 am

8. Good for you.

   If I lived in CA, I would also be voting for prop 8. If it passes it will be used as a weapon in courts against religious institutions and people, and their rights as it has everywhere else “marriage equality” has passed. In MA the Catholic church no longer runs adoption services because gays sued to try and force them to adopt to gay couples. In NJ a religious organization was sued, and lost, for not renting their facilities out for a gay civil union ceremony. In Canada religious leaders have been prosecuted for daring to say that their religion teaches them that homosexuality is sinful.

   Anyone who thinks gays in CA would not use gay marriage as a weapon against religious freedoms, as gay activists have everywhere else gay marriage has been approved, is simply in denial.

   Comment by American Elephant — October 12, 2008 @ 2:34 pm

9. Kevin,

   There is no “equality” issue involved. The reason government is involved in marriage in the first place is to encourage a behavior it deems beneficial to society. It has nothing to do with rewarding people for their emotional relationships. It has to do with reproducing society, and trying to get as many children as possible to be raised by their natural mother and father.

   You want to be treated the same for doing something entirely different.

   Fine, make your case to society and let the people vote on your proposal. But don’t pretend you’re asking to be treated the same for doing the same thing. You aren’t.

   Comment by American Elephant — October 12, 2008 @ 2:42 pm

10. Thank you for your letter and your perspective, John and Robert. I really admire your courage to speak up and to support and defend your families’ faiths. One of my dearest friends is gay, and I would be so happy for him to find happiness with a good guy - and I don’t see that as mutually exclusive with my support on Prop. 8 (although I don’t know if he’d agree). I have so much respect and gratitude for your voice on this issue. Thanks again!

    Comment by Christa — October 12, 2008 @ 7:13 pm

11. I love what you have to say regarding prop 8. I will be voting yes in November and I have had a hard time voicing my position in fear I may offend my gay friends. I think you explained it perfectly and it really is not about attacking the gay community and whether or not my personal religious beliefs condone homosexuality. It is about protecting our religious freedoms and those values that our country was built on. I think sometimes we forgot those people who sacrificed all they had to have these freedoms we enjoy. I know it can be hard to be different and I applaud your willingness to speak your truth. Thank you!

    Comment by Lisa — October 13, 2008 @ 12:32 am

12. I’m having a hard time believing this was written by a gay man, but for a second I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt. The point here is not about religious freedom, people already have religious freedom. A person being gay and wanting to get married does not affect another person’s ability to have religious freedom. I should know; I’m a Christian woman who was raised by gay parents. It is really preposterous to suggest that voting to not ban gay marriage somehow hurts families.

    Unfortunately, marriage is not just a religious institution. It is also a governmental institution. If people don’t allow gays to marry, then they shouldn’t give any tax breaks or special privileges to non-gay couples. There must be a separation of church and state.

    Comment by Julie — October 13, 2008 @ 8:56 am

13. Julie:

    I know the author, and the LA gay community has known him for years. I posted his letter because it accurately alludes to my own objections to gay marriage.

    I was recently invited to attend one of these alleged weddings and I doubt that I will go, despite my affection for one of the “grooms”.

    The “nuptuals” are good men, and if I don’t think about them in the context of anal sex, I’m just as okay as I am in not thinking of Barbara Streisand’s sexual life.

    But, to me, words like “nuptuals, wedding, and marriage” have to do with the promise between a man and a woman, and the creation and miracle of a new life. One cannot rationally compare the miracle of life that is traditional marriage with the non-existent promise that is limited to sexual gratification: Nor should the commitment between two men or women who love each other require the artifice of a state-sponsored marriage. If two people love each other that is enough for them. But comparing the two insults the spititual covenant of marriage and the promise of life that it gives.

    Leftists and socialists promote gay marriage because it helps to erode the political power that strong, thriving, spiritually-connected families offer to thriving economies and democracies.

    I have no problem with gay men or women finding happiness as domestic partners, but please don’t insult marriage by claiming that co-masturbation and sexual gratification is in any way equal to the promise and gift of human life. Insisting that they are the same is a scientific, biological, and spiritual lie that cannot be fixed by any court or gay movement - and the foundation of marriage should not be built on a lie.

    Comment by Clark Baker — October 13, 2008 @ 9:29 am

14. I don’t agree homosexuality, as per what’s written in the bible, but this country was founded on the pursuit of basic human rights, and it doesn’t matter whether I personally agree with it or not. I don’t agree with watching violent/sexually explicit television either, but should we ban TV because I don’t like it?

    The average marriage in California lasts 8 years. My mom and her partner have been together for 20+ years. If my mom had stayed with my father (an alcoholic) he would have abused me the way he abused my older brother. My mom’s girlfriend never abused me. My father stopped drinking when my mom kicked him out, and now we are able to have a good relationship.

    This is just my personal experience. I’m basing my vote on my personal experience and you can base your vote on whatever you think. But just know that my current healthy marriage to my husband was only possible because I grew up with parents who loved each other, not two people who hated and abused each other.

    Comment by Julie — October 13, 2008 @ 11:20 am

15. Well Clark, how Christian of you!

    Comment by Rocky — October 13, 2008 @ 9:16 pm

16. The reason many in the GLBT community have a ruff time beliving this was written by gay men is simple- they are willing victims. Sadly, most in my community live in these protective bubles caslled “communities”, and they have been told all their lives “you poor gay/lesbian you have been victimized by the world”.

    I spent a total of 28 years working as a police officer-starting back in 1981, and the last 23 of my career was in Southern CA as an openly gay officer with a department which had a “well doccumented history” of bias-certainly towards gays. I worked as an “open officer” since June 21st 1991. I was not then and will never be a “victim”. Nor will my partner and I allow eachother to be victims. We are very happy with our lives and the domestic partnership laws in this state- they work fine.

    It is NOT OUR JOB to fight for others “perceived rights”. There is little community acceptance for “free thinking” or call for “individual responsiblity” within the GLBT community and this is why they find this way some are so shocked and cannot belive a gay person would write such a letter.

    This is also why the YES people currently have 12 million in the bank and the No people only have 3 million-to spend on the final days of the election. This is why by some polls this is failing by nearly 13%-ALREADY.
    Most PEOPLE in my community think that it is “good enough” to “just be right” well, thats not the case in the real world- you need to be more than right.

    At the end of the day it matters little what two gay men think in SoCal- you need to convince the rest of the 10 million people in the LA area alone-not to mention the rest of the state. Right now, the NO folks have done a horrible job of making people belive this is a good thing for everyone in the state of CALIF.

    Comment by John/Robert — October 16, 2008 @ 7:57 am

17. Wow, this whole letter is one big ad-hominem argument.

    In effect: “Prop 8 is good because there’s some offensive group over there that’s against Prop 8.”

    That’s a terrible reason to support the revocation of the marriage rights of millions of Californians.

    One can support respect toward religious conservatives and/or Catholics *and* support marriage equality for all Californians. In fact, I do, and so does my whole church.

    Please, vote No on Prop 8.

    Patrick Meighan
    Culver City, CA

    Comment by Patrick Meighan — October 17, 2008 @ 11:59 am

18. There’s nothing ad hominem about the letter.

    I live in West Hollywood and consider many gay men as friends.

    I don’t mind interacting with gays on a professional or social level, but they are not just like everyone else. There are no social, spiritual or biological similarities.

    Marriage is a covenant with God that implies a spiritual promise to create life. It is not a device which can, in any way, be used to convince a heterosexual majority into believing that homosexuals are “just like everyone else.”

    One is a marriage and the other can be a domestic or civil partnership.

    Marriage is good for humanity, while domestic partnerships are good for the domestic partners. One is a celebration of life, while the other celebrates self-indulgent sexual gratification. There is no comparison.

    That is why I will vote YES on Prop 8.

    Comment by reenforce — October 17, 2008 @ 12:56 pm

19. This has probably been said over and over, but I feel the best solution is to restructure “marriage benefits” to be more honest to their intent: “child-rearing benefits”. Marriage, for all intents-and-purposes, should be handled by whatever church, temple, or self that your beliefs suggest.

    While I have personal objections to homosexuality, I do NOT feel that they should affect legal rights. HOWEVER, no matter the spiritual purpose of it, the legal purpose of “marriage” is to encourage child-rearing - that this has been combined simply with “marriage” in both the law and in many churches is what has helped make marriage such a base, trivial commodity in our society.

    Further divorcing the intent from the enactment of marriage will do no service to anyone, including homosexuals. Any two conseting, informed persons should (legally) be allowed to join in a form of civil union - and that is ALL the government should involve itself with on the matter. “Marriage” can either be left as a “freedom of religion” bit - to be dealt with however the individual believes it should - or it should be ‘’specifically” for couples raising children.

    Now, of course, this is a pipe dream - to much work would be required, too much common sense, and too much civility, to enact any plan like this.

    One last note: As to those commenting that the writer’s of this article “can’t be who they say they are”, “are self-loathing, etc. -

    HOW DARE YOU. Nowhere in the article did the writer’s profess such abject intolerance, and refusal to believe that anyone can disagree with them. If you’d like to put forward an argument for why voting no will benefit society, PLEASE DO SO - but simply resorting to calling the other side bigots is one of the worst kinds of intolerance and ad hominem. It may not be physical intolerance, the absolute worst kind, but it is quite close.

    Comment by KKoro — October 19, 2008 @ 2:44 pm

20. John & Robert…

    As a fellow “Central Valley” Native, I want to openly thank you for this letter that you’ve written to your community. While we disagree on your choice of lifestyle, I think that your gesture in the form of this letter gives serious hope to the ongoing reconciliation efforts between those who think homosexuality is wrong, and those who think it is right.

    Thank you for writing this letter. I am so proud of you for standing up for your families, their churches, and OUR faith! Thank you!

    Comment by Mike T. — October 19, 2008 @ 11:55 pm

21. The way this whole thing has gone is bad for everyone. If we as a nation could see that our country is turning socialistic maybe we would return to the constitution and insure equality for individuals and not groups. I’m glad you see a part of what we face here. Socialism/Communism is never tolerant with freedom of religion. Thank you for your bravery. Yes on 8

    Comment by faanunu — October 22, 2008 @ 7:13 am

22. Hey Boys - Thanks so much for posting your letter.

    But I do just want to point out, if you are REAL gay boys (and not just some BS created by conservatives), it is interesting that you use, of all groups, the Sisters or Perpetual Indulgence, who have taken great pains (figurative and literal) to push the boundaries out on every social issue to make the center area safer and more comfortable for people like you to live, work, breath, speak and play in.

    John and Robert, if it weren’t for the Sisters and their extremism of holding up a mirror to the ugliness of conservative rhetoric, you boys would never have gotten your story published on a website called “Conservative California”…let alone have elicited such amazing support from so many conservatives.

    Three decades ago, when the Sisters first formed, you would have been living in fear that anybody might find out your terrible secret of a maintaining a loving and caring relationship for the past 12 years. I’m sorry you feel so called to single out the Sisters…but since you have, I wish you can see that if it weren’t for the Sisters and organizations and individuals such as them, you would not even have the freedom today to deny yourselves the right to marry.

    However, personally, I believe you are a couple of (if you are a couple at all…) desperate little conservative Christians (Mormon? Catholic? Who ever is a major funder of this yes on 8 campaign and realizing they have to step up their fear and hate tactics) working every angle possible to get your agenda of hate passed into law.

    If you are actually Robert and John, I hope for your sake that Prop 8 doesn’t pass…and despite your willing to sell out your fellow queers, I wish you every happiness if you ever do decide to take the plunge. And if you are just an evil conservative hoping to sensationalize the issue to do your part to keep up a failing momentum, well…I wish you luck…in hell! For after all…your kind believes in hell…and that’s where your acts will lead you.

    Comment by Jay Dwyer — October 23, 2008 @ 11:40 pm

23. Jay:

    The thing you don’t get, and probably never will, is that the vast majority of all Americans (and people around the world) could not care less who you love or how consenting adults express love to one another.

    I accept that John and Robert are good men who love one another. I respect them and they respect me. They don’t tell me their relationship is just like mine, and I don’t tell them that mine is better than theirs. They’re good people who I love and respect, and they love and respect me for who I am.

    What offends most of us, however, and what prompts people like me to support Prop 8, is your insistence that non-gays be forced to understand the ugliest details of your relationships and sexual proclivities, and to accept them as NORMAL.

    Most of us DON’T WANT TO KNOW just as you don’t want to know about my sexual appetite, practices, or relationships. You don’t want lewd, ugly, and outrageous heterosexuals marching through your cities in trashy make-up and pathological costume in celebration of heterosexual sex, and we don’t want to see lewd, ugly, and outrageous gays in our faces doing the same thing.

    We want you to do your own thing and be happy, but if you think that you can force the ugly and lascivious nature of your biological anomaly upon others and not receive resistance within a democracy, you are perversely mistaken. Hook up with whoever you want, but don’t force me and my children to accept your decisions as equal to mine.

    One of your more ardent fans physically attacked a Modesto man this week who supports Prop 8. No one puts Yes on Prop 8 signs in LA because boors like you will rip them out. Indeed, if we post YES signs in front of our West Hollywood homes, we know your goons will attack us and vandalize our homes and cars for being hateful – without it ever dawning on you that you’re the belligerent Klansmen this time.

    I don’t hate gays. I have many gay friends. We simply oppose YOUR insolent tone and we’re tired of you telling our kids that you’re just like them.

    We have diversity – you’re gay and we’re not. Respect our differences. Keep your relationships to yourselves, and we’ll keep our relationships to ourselves. Respect our marriages and we’re respect your civil unions.

    I’m all for civil unions – I have one too, but don’t force me to accept that your arrangements are equal to mine. It is not and it will never be.

    This is why Prop 8 will pass by an overwhelming margin.

    Vote YES on 8!

    Comment by Clark Baker — October 24, 2008 @ 9:45 am

24. Mr Jay Dwyer, Let me first point out that we are not “gay boys” we are in fact middle aged MEN and the only thing we have in common with the gay community is our sexual orientation-that’s were all common ground ends. While we are open about our lives, we do not wear it on our chests as a badge.

    Becuase you doubt my validity. I have the courage to ask you to do a “google search” using the following information “Los Anegels Police Officer John Smith” or “GAYS IN LAPD”. I am now retired and the LAPD has NO involvement with my views.

    The articals from the Los Angeles Times and others you will find will point out in graphic detail my life over the years.
    You will in FACT find out we are REAL poeple and I am a real person; not some “mock up.” As you will see we are not above calling it as we see it.

    To try and attempt to use “gay-gestopo tactics” and get us or anyone else to change thier minds using fear is typical of the gay community. This is EXACTLY why we have distanced ourselves from the gay community over the years, will never go to San Fran again, and avoid EVERYTHING TO DO with West Hollywood these days.

    We belive in the bill of rights, and US contstitution. We will in NO way concern ourselves with members of the GLBT community who try and use fear, terror, and violence to intimidate people or shame us into changeing. This is nothing more than Nazi like behavior not the acions of an “American.”

    As we have said before this whole prop 8 ballot measure has pushed our “private life” onto center stage. While we are comfortable with that- it is not something ANYONE in our community has a right to do on our behalf or in our name.

    We are sick of listening to “we have a right to get married”- well “WE” don’t all feel that way! At no time do WE ever remember anyone asking us, taking a vote, or anything like that to allow a person to speak for ALL “GLBT’s” What we do know is that a handful of militants in the gay community has Hyjacked us and have now cuase us to be lumped in with them!

    As for “The Sisiters” I like to use The Los Angeles Police Department as a good example for them. When Rodney King was stopped in 1991, or when the Rampart Corruption issue came out in the late 1990’s- not only did the involved officers suffer (as they should have) but the rest of The LAPD suffered becuase of the actions of “a few”.

    The WHOLE POLICE DEPARTMENT OF 9000 SWORN PEOPLE was labled as “brutal”, “Corrupt” and “bias”-this was not the case yet it happend. The actions of a few still huant this department to this very day- yet 65% of those working the streets were not even employed at the time, commandstaff has changed, and those involved were removed- the “stain” of these events lingers on years after the events occured.

    The reason this happens is human nature- we as humans tend to “paint all people with a broad brush” it is not right but it happens. This is EXACTLY WHAT is happening with the sisters and MANY OTHERS INVOLVED IN CRIMIANL ACTIVITY in our community.

    People in our community are committing acts, being less than good role models, and at the same time harming the greater community- yet “the community” looks at these thugs as “heros”.

    I have seen a hero or two in my day- they aint it! These people nothing more than cowards hiding behind a legit topic of discussion.

    So, this brings me back to “The Sisters” (and others like them) I could care less how much money they raise, what social acts of kindness they do- their bad behavior gives all of our community a “black eye” like it or not!

    We (and others like my partner and I) will not tollerate that and will not support it at anytime. If a St8 person was to make these remarks/ take a stand like this- they would be labeled quickly as “homophobic” yet, when two gay men make these comments it is not only more belivable but we speak the truth becuase we have seen it withn our own eyes. Those in the community who whine “we are being picked on” now fade away!

    I have seen “The Sisters” appearing in public and on TWO differnet occassions I have seen members of this group CLEARLY UNDER THE INFLUANCE OF METHAMPHETAMINE!

    As a (now retired) police officer (a gay one) I am well aware of the physical symptoms cause by the abuse of crystal meth. This drug is running rampied in our community- our efforts are better spent on stopping this and not picking fights with people over marriage!

    Again, their actions (The Sisters and others) give us all a black eye. Now add into this a gay Los Angeles Sheriff Deptuy who was in Palm Springs at an event as saw the sisters. RIGHT OUT IN PUBLIC THIS OFFICER SAW TWO members of this group using illegal drugs! We (and others like us) will in no way support groups or people like this- never. wE WILL NOT SUPPORT YOUR AGENDAS OR YOUR CUASE- WHATEVER IT IS!

    These are NOT the actions of Role Models! These are however, the actions of people looking to get attention and they will stop at nothing to get it- even if it means walking into a church in full blow drag and disrupting a service.

    The below information is also easy to verify using a simple “google search”.

    Since prop 8 has hit the ballot 5 gay men were arrested last week after removing and destroying “YES ON 8″ signs in SoCal. In Modesto Calif, a male hispanic man holding “YES ON 8″ signs was physically assulted in public during the day time and had to be taken to the hospital for treatment and recieved stitces to his face. These acts of VOTER INTIMIDATION ARE HAPPING ALL UP AND DOWN THE STATE!

    ON MY WEB SITE! ON MYSPACE- some donkey from West Hollywood openly bragged about who he went into a business in Los Angeles and disrupted the store and distroyed the “YES ON 8″ sign. I removed him and his comments from my web site, posted his name and remarks in my blog and called him a psyco coward. This is your community-NO OURS!

    I would avcoate the use of “hate crime” charges against ANYONE involved in this type of criminal conduct. The gay community I am sure would dismiss this horrible activity as “expression of speech” and agrue “well the YES on 8 side is doing it also!”

    Two wrongs do not make a right and I could care less about the actions of the yes folks- they do not claim to speak of us.

    The NO on 8 people do claim to speak for us. So, If you want our support then you (the GLBT Community) will obey the laws as they are written, lead by example, and use integrity/ common respect for others in all that you say and do. If you want “rights” be worthy of them!

    It troubles us to say that the bulk of these CRIMES being committed in the name of “Prop 8″ are being committed by GLBT people. As for the 5 arrested- they said in the papers/ TV the 5 suspects had just attended a “NO on 8″ ralley at a bar in Fullerton and were inspired to this action by attending this ralley.

    So, we (The GLBT Community) tollerate “The Sisters’, we tollerate the meth (SLANG; Tina) abuse in our community, and now we are tollerating violence and the basic denial of others rights to ‘FREEE SPEECH’- WHERE DO WE STOP? AT WHAT POINT DO WE SAY ‘ENOUGH’.

    We have decided to say “ENOUGH” on this issue. I am troubled by the actions of our community and to those who read this, I hope we can move beyond this. I would like to point out that those of us (gay men and lesbian women) living outside these gay ghettos like West Hollywood and San Fran are as mainsteam as anyone else. We are more people like YOU than those in the gay community.

    We do not support this type of activity and we are speaking out against it to stop it- at the end of this prop 8 mess the fact is we all need to live together in this nation and the actions of a few crazies are not the values of a SANE majority.

    Comment by John/Robert — October 25, 2008 @ 9:09 am

25. Although you’re retired now, you’re still the police officer I met years ago. You speak not for the activist fringe, but for sensible Americans. Without you and your demonstration of courage, Americans would still think that gays prefer their own little caged corners under the boots of their gay handlers. Your independence is inspirational.

    Thank you for defining yourself as a great American and not just one more lock-step leftist queer.

    Comment by Clark Baker — October 25, 2008 @ 1:31 pm

26. Years ago, an artical was written by a gay man about the gay community. The name of it was “Death of the Gay Community.”

    In a nut shell, this artical spoke to how mambers of the gay (GLBT community) were becoming more and more accepted within society. The paper pointed out that as acceptance grew, gay men and lesbians (like us) began to move out of areas like San Fransico and West Hollywood.

    When this happens, gay businesses fail, others move into these areas, and the “gay community” and the political power it once held in these issolated pockets becomes watered down or non existant.

    Sutdio City, in Los Angeles, is a classic example- a once thriving gay community faded away and nearly all the business that once catered to this community have vanished.

    Why? the gay community in this area-moved out to other parts of the LA Baisin. We moved out of the area in 2003-to where we are at now, and have loved it ever since! Moving to our current home outside LA City was one of the best things we ever did with our lives! For the time being the “No on Prop 8″ has pulled the community “somewhat together” but come Nov 5th these No on 8 activist will be out a job-once again (lets hope!).

    Our type of independance scares many in the gay community and certainly in West Hollywood which is slowly being taken over by immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
    The Gay Community in San Fransico has been slowly dieing for years now, and West Hollywood is not far behind.

    Many businesses, and night clubs along Santa Montica Blvd., we once visited have vansihed and are now owen and operated by NEW immigrants.

    So, to think that WE WOULD cross lines and start thinking like mainstream America should not shock many people. That’s why we have so many in the gay community using hateful tactics and crude remarks about us crossing to the YES side- these are the very type of tactics they speak out against.

    Like other groups (immigrants and others) gays like us have moved into mainstream American and began to “blend in” and now fit in. We have made lives for oursleves, we have friends from all walks of life, we look out for our nieghbors and family- we don’t look at things from a “single point of view”- yet many on the “NO” side are doing just that.Oddly, our story is not uncommon. There are lots of “emmancipated gays” living in mainstream society all up and down the state of california- we are but only two.

    When GLBT’s blend into mainstream America we begin to identify with our nieghbors and NOT the gay community. OUR COMMUNITY IS WHERE WE NOW LIVE. Our values, our beliefs, our day to day life mimics those communities we now live in-not some far away “issolated pocket” like West Hollywood or San Fran.

    Robert and I do not see the gay community as our community. In fact, we see Acton, Agua Dulce, Santa Clarita, and where we grew up as kids as our homes, as OUR COMMUNITY! Add to this OUR FIRST HAND experiances within the gay community and what we know of the gay community from dealing with it most of our adult lives.

    So, it would stand to reason that we would not support such an issue. Now throw into the mix our upbringing and our tight relationships with our families and this issue is a no brainer for us. As we said, a few have Hyjacked the whole GLBT community and force this matter back upon the voters of this state.

    When we state things like this and people in the gay ghettos get wind of it- it scares activist in the gay community and others pushing agendas becuase we have the ablitiy to do something striaght people cannot- tell the truth and not be branded as “homophobic biggots”. If enough people in our community do this- the psycos are out of a job!

    When people like us stop thinking like “the community” and blend in to society the gay community dies or is reduced to a small group of unhappy people always pushing some cuase.

    I know this comes as a major shock to most GLBT’s and even some in the religous community. Robert and I are committed to protecting The Bill of Rights and The Constitution. We display this commitment everytime we vote and when we obey the laws as they are written.

    We have done this even when it came to Roberts’ US citizenship papers- we did EVERYTHING according to the laws of this nation. As a former law enfocement officer, I would not accept anything else and I am proud of his actions. Robert leads others by his actions and example. This is the halmark of a “role model”.

    It scares the hell out of us to think that 61% of the people voted in 2000, to define marriage- yet 6 same sex couples, with the aid of a Militant Mayor in San Fransico, has now FORCED THIS ISSUE BACK UPON THE VOTERS OF THIS STATE.

    This Mayor (Gavin Newsum) decided to break the law, and then he encourage unlawful behavior. THESE PEOPLE TOTALLY IGNORED the desires of the voters- The PEOPLE of California.

    Now add onto the mix 4 UNTRA- LIBRAL judges (not a all of them-only 4) who decided to “legislate from the bench.” These judges basiclly thumber thier noses at 61% of the people in this state and went against the will of the voters in the state!

    I remember all too well Chief Justice “Rose Bird” back in the 1970’s/ 1980’s, and her courts actions-I hope these 4 judges meet the same fate as she did when it comes time for us to vote on them!

    ALL Democracy, is endanger when you have activities like this taking place. A small number of militant people, aided by outlaw elected officals willing to violate the law/ desires of voters, supported by judges with “aggendas”- wow! This should scare anyone-including gays and lesbians! The “No on 8″ people-are blind to all this-we are not.

    We have NEVER WANTED TO “change” anyones religious values, beliefs, or customs- this is not what our nation was built upon. We are aware of those who would use violence upon us in the name of religion- so we take care- but they do not make up the majority of people in this state, and world. Thankfully, most of them live elsewhere (Topeka, Kansas!) and not next door to us.

    Prop 8 is bad news and should have never been FORCED UPON THE VOTERS OF THIS STATE. Yet, it is now before us and we all must “choose a side”. Prop 8 is a “yes or no” question. We are not going to “over think” this matter- we are gonna vote our beliefs and values. Hopefully, for all of us (reasonable people) this whole nightmare will once again fade away.

    We enocurage everyone to “vote your values and your beliefs”. This is how we intend to vote- our reasons should be clear to all why we choose to vote.

    We will vote yes like our neighbors, our “blood family” and 90% of our friends (stright and gay). As for the No people- well, you have the right to vote as you choose- This is America after all!

    What happens in the “gay community scene” well- we don’t care- that’s not our community. It is not our job to fight for your precived rights- what ever you think they are.

    Comment by John/Robert — October 25, 2008 @ 8:02 pm

27. Just when you thought it could not get any worse………..well, I stand corrected. Due to prop 8, weather I like it or not, the GLBT (gay) community has been thrust on to center stage during this election season.

    You would think that this would have caused members of the GLBT community to use good judgment in all that they say and do. I would think the members of my (GLBT) community would be wanting to show the people (voters) of California we are worthy of “of the right” to get married.

    Well, I was wrong. You see, last week two men in West Hollywood decided to put up yard décor for Halloween. While West Hollywood is known for bad taste, unusual, and over-the-top behavior; this is over the edge. I guess these two drama queens in West Hollywood did not “get the memo” that said, “Our community is under the microscope due to prop 8- be good.” Their yard display is the epitome of bad taste.
    I have said it time and time again- some people will do ANYTHING to get attention, and they sure have!!!!

    Now, you probably have seen this front yard display on every major network news station over the past week which has now generated an INTERNATIONAL controversy. These two gay men (FOX news discribes them as a “couple’) built an effigy of Sara Palin in a red dress hanging in a noose out front of their West Hollywood home, with John McCain (a former POW who served with honor!) jumping from the burning chimney. As the two gay men spoke with reporters they stood in front of their “Oboma for President” and “no on 8″ signs.

    The men described the offensive Halloween display as “art”- OK MARY IF YOU SAY SO!

    From on gay man to another- this is tacky and trashy. Sara Palin is a mother, a wife, a daughter, a Governor, mentor to a handicapped child, and now Vice Presidential Candidate. Regardless of your political views, these two idiots have “hung” and effigy of a REAL person.

    Given our current community efforts with respects to Prop 8, these two men have called UNWANTED AND NEGITIVE ATTENTION to the gay community as a whole through their actions and once again, two gay men from “Berkeley South” has given the GLBT community a black eye in the national media; at a time when the public’s perception is important.

    This “art” has certainly offended people nationwide and across California just FOUR days before voters decide the fate of prop 8 and THEIR ACTIONS HAVE sparked protests out in front of their West Hollywood home.

    Granted if we had laws which regulated “good taste” our jails would be standing room only. When it comes to bad taste and tacky behavior; this is a felony. If these two gay men had any intestinal stamina at all; they would have hung a democratic candidate (presidential or V/P) right next to the two republican candidates- yet, these two drama queens know EXACTLY what the political implications would have been. In Redondo Beach a home owner put up her Halloween display with a meat cleaver in the neck of an effigy of Senator Oboma with a “NO-boma” sign. The owner of this display was contacted quickly by McCain’s campaign and the effigy was removed from public view immediately.
    Why? it is inappropriate!!!

    I suspect that the over-the-top liberal population of West Hollywood would probably have ran these two men out of town on rails if they had suspended Senator Oboma or any person of color from their rope. So, these two cowardly WeHo men took the easy way out- they focused on the “white” republicans and it remains up as a display for all too see.

    Form one gay man to another- shame, shame, shame! You have embarrassed the whole gay community with your bad behavior!

    Comment by John/Robert — October 30, 2008 @ 8:41 am

28. Good points all, but are you really surprised that Democrats use lynching as a terrorist device?

    While the Republican Party was created to end slavery and won the Civil War, Democrats created Jim Crow and the KKK to terrorize white and black Republicans from the start of Reconstruction (1865) until 1964, after years of Republicans shoving civil rights down Democrat throats. After Kennedy exploited MLK to gain the black vote in 1960, segregationist school districts started blaming Republicans for Democrat pathologies - which they continue to do today.

    After Republicans finally forced Democrats to outlaw lynching during the Truman Administration, gay, environmental, feminist, pro-abortion, and other Democrats have felt comfortable to continue their expressions of hatred toward Republicans, now under the pretext of fighting for civil rights. I wrote about their history HERE.

    These gay West Hollywood lynchers are not at fault - they simply don’t know any better. They do, however, remind us all of what gay, feminist, environmentalist, and racial activism truly is - the continuation of blatant and unapologetic bigotry by hateful Democrats. It is the DNC’s history and DNA.

    Comment by Clark Baker — October 30, 2008 @ 9:42 am

29. OK, I will only believe that marriage between a man and a woman is so sacred (for the purpose of procreation) when

    1. the federal government passes a law banning all divorce
    2. the government rules out marriage for people who are
    a) infertile
    b) beyond childbearing age.

    Let’s see how far this “argument” lasts then. When over 50% of all marriages are ending in divorce and Britney Spears is getting married and annulling marriages on a whim, it is pretty hard to see the “sanctity of marriage”. How some guy and girl who get drunk and get married on a whim is somehow a holier union than a gay couple that has been together for years is beyond me.

    Comment by George — November 3, 2008 @ 12:06 am

30. George:

    Thank you for so clearly articulating the inane logic of the Vote No mob.

    If you want to compare your relationships to the sacrament of marriage, that’s your problem. Your problem becomes MY problem when you and the leftist courts attempt to compare my status as a father and husband to your status as a socio-biological anomaly.

    In California, no one (especially me) cares who you love, live with, why, or what you do to each other. What we DO care about is when you and other human anomalies try to convince normal people that you’re just like us. You AREN’T, you never were, and you never will be, which is why God/nature (or whatever you want to call Him) prevents biological anomalies like you from reproducing.

    Live and love whom you will, but don’t force me to pretend it’s normal or just like marriage.

    I’d put signs on my lawn but you and your klan would vandalize my house.

    YES ON 8!

    Comment by reenforce — November 3, 2008 @ 2:25 pm

31. i’m sad.

    i’m sad because i’m a flaming liberal. i have lived with and loved my gay friends no different than any of my straight, transsexual, transgendered, or whatever friends. i read the atlantic, the new yorker, i contribute to npr, i eat organic food, i vote to save animals, i recycle, i support the local arts, i’m a bike commuter, i try to do my part to be a good, informed citizen and a good democrat. i’m also a mormon. and i’m voting yes on 8. i support my gay friends. i always have, since i was 16 and was ridiculed by some of my more backwards family members. i’m not homophobic. my roommate for three years and best friend was a lesbian (i’m female), and i’ve loved and kissed and cuddled any of my friends, straight or gay, and i’m tired of hearing that i’m homophobic. but i have my reasons for voting yes on 8.

    surprisingly, it hasn’t been my gay friends who have attacked me the most, though some have. no, for the most part, they who have known me for ten years know that i’m still the same loving friend i was before prop 8, and i will be the same loving friend on nov. 5th. but it has been my straight, democrat, bleeding-heart liberal friends, who cry for tolerance for every walk of life who have railed against, attacked, insulted, and basically have entirely forgotten who i am and have treated me as the enemy. just because i believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and i support civil unions for any other relationship.

    i always fought for tolerance for their lifestyles that went against my own beliefs. now i’m wondering where my tolerance is.

    i feel very let down by my liberal community.

    i’m sad.

    Comment by sad — November 3, 2008 @ 6:56 pm

32. While I respect your opinion I have to say that as gay men I think voting yes on Prop 8 is kind of a slap in the face to our community. Yes I understand that there are those who take “our fight” too far, there are those that cross the line but what about those of us who don’t? You say that our country was built on religious freedom and yes that’s a fact but if religious freedom is what we are entitled to then why is one religious belief being forced on everybody else [some like myself that don't follow it]? You ask for respect? And yet you vote to deny us from marriage. You wonder why we think we have the “right” to get married BECAUSE WE DO! Marriage isn’t a solely a religious institution. I’ve been to weddings that don’t ever mention religion. Marriage is a government institution. Hence the reason we have to get a marriage license. Separation of church and state was enforced to protect us from your beliefs. I shouldn’t be denied my rights because your god doesn’t “allow” them. But I mean I guess you’re right, let’s punish everybody because some douche bags cross the line.

    Comment by Justin — November 8, 2008 @ 9:58 am

33. What utter nonsense..

    So basically,your mad at some drag queens and because of that,you voted in unison with people that hate you.

    Good idea..

    Comment by Kenny Browne — November 8, 2008 @ 10:45 am

34. It’s apparent that the only people who hate and cannot get along with the larger community are the flaming gay activists.

    For many decades, gay men and women hid in the closet longing for the day when they could be free. Now that they are free, a handful of flaming queens want them to stay confined inside their little pink box. This isn’t about rights, love or respect - it’s about electoral CONTROL of the gay community.

    If I had a choice between by autonomy or being stuck in a pink box, I’d choose the autonomy and sovereignty of the closet over the flaming box that a few fascistic queens want to put me in.

    If you want to see fascism, stick a Yes on 8 bumber sticker on your car and park in West Hollywood or Castro. If you do that you’ll understand what it was like to be a black (or white) Republican in Alabama during the 1920s.

    Democrats haven’t changed much since Jim Crow and the Klan policed their party. Today, the Klan has traded their hoods and robes for sequined gowns and leather, their own hatred protected by “hate speech” legislation that allows gays to call the larger community bigoted while daring the larger community to respond with equal depravity.

    The Democrat Party seeks to control gays with “gay leaders” just as they have appointed “black leaders” and “labor leaders” to control the black and union vote. Union mobsters attack skeptical workers as scabs, blacks mobsters in religious garb attack skeptical blacks of trying to be white, and gay mobsters accuse rational gay people of being self-loathing and unrealized homos.

    It isn’t your lifestyle that is sick - it’s the unconscious advancement of your Democrat Party history. What is it about freedom that terrifies you so?

    Comment by Clark Baker — November 8, 2008 @ 6:36 pm

35. Justin and Kenny within the police department (what you both are asking for) is called a “code of silence.” Just becuase we are gay we should sit and keep our mouth shut. You, and others like you, would hope that guys like my partner and I remain silent as to give the public the idea we are all together on this. We are not- You and the rest of the No on 8 mob are going it alone; with out us!

    Slap in the face?

    Yea you bet!!!!! I am happy you got that point clearly!!! Payback? yea! Payment for others bad deeds? SURE! I knida understand what “SAD” is saying- like him we have had people turn on us for voicing our views- which is OK-they need us more than we need them.

    I have yet to see a No on 8 person who can talk about this without lowering themsleves to yelling and screaming and stomping like a child.

    Justin, I guess I missed something in all those law classes I had over the years while working and doing my formal education in constitutional law. you are talking “ideals” on this one and the majority do not support your ideals.

    Can you PLEASE SHOW ME ANYWHERE in the constitution where it clearly says we have a “right” to get married? You know like an “ammendment.” I don’t see it???

    Equal Protection under the law was written when our nation was formed and I won’t get into the details on why they put this into our constitution-but it was NOT done to imply they supported same-sex marriage. I don’t think our founding fathers could have guessed in their wildest dreams we as a nation/ state would be debating this!

    Those who are trying to force “Separation of church and state” and justify this mess as “equal protection” are constitutional litteralist who want to twist things for their own needs. Kinda like Fred Phelps from Whitsboro Church in Kansas (twists things from the Bible for his needs)- yet nobody pays any attention to him becuase many see him for what he is-CRAZY.

    Well, thats what is going on with the No on 8 people now. Fred is out in right field and the No on 8 people are out in left field and guys like us are cuaght in the middle- so we are moving right of center on this.

    When moderate people speak out, like we do others have a new postion to consider. Now the militants become less important, and their ideas/ message seem to be far fetched.

    The eyes of the nation are upon us in CA on this one. For the most part we as a community look like crap now becuase of what is going on now, and been going on for years. I will niot sit and pretend this is “ok”-it’s not.

    Dang, after all this I am now hungery- I am gonna go to El Coyote for some Mexican food!!!

    Comment by John — November 12, 2008 @ 8:44 am