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	<title>Comments on: Fisking Franken&#8217;s Op-ed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/</link>
	<description>Speaking Out For The Silent Majority (TM)</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 03:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Shii</title>
		<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-676622</link>
		<dc:creator>Shii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/#comment-676622</guid>
		<description>What sort of "radical fringe organization" has 3,000,000 members?

It's ridiculous that Norm Coleman has this article on the front page of his website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What sort of &#8220;radical fringe organization&#8221; has 3,000,000 members?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ridiculous that Norm Coleman has this article on the front page of his website.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-622335</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/#comment-622335</guid>
		<description>I cannot believe that both this site and Norm Coleman's would print that unintelligible "Fisking Franken's Op-Ed".  I have a 3rd grader who can write with better grammar.  I have a 5th grader that asked what this sentence was meant to say. Why should Mr. Franken get away with not speaking out against a radical fringe organization after they’ve accused Gen. Petraeus of lying before they’ve even heard what he said a word?  Please translate to all of us that don't speak Californian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cannot believe that both this site and Norm Coleman&#8217;s would print that unintelligible &#8220;Fisking Franken&#8217;s Op-Ed&#8221;.  I have a 3rd grader who can write with better grammar.  I have a 5th grader that asked what this sentence was meant to say. Why should Mr. Franken get away with not speaking out against a radical fringe organization after they’ve accused Gen. Petraeus of lying before they’ve even heard what he said a word?  Please translate to all of us that don&#8217;t speak Californian.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-594614</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/#comment-594614</guid>
		<description>Yes, its extremely ridiculous for our great senator to be spending his time defending a US General's honor.  I think the general can take care of himself and is not often prone to hurt feelings.  One thing he might consider doing with his time is talking to our great governor who refuses to pony up any funds or responsibility for the bridge that just fell into the Mississippi river.

Did you know that our great senator used to be a Democrat.  I'm sure he will be once again as soon as he gets a whiff of the political winds.  Very ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, its extremely ridiculous for our great senator to be spending his time defending a US General&#8217;s honor.  I think the general can take care of himself and is not often prone to hurt feelings.  One thing he might consider doing with his time is talking to our great governor who refuses to pony up any funds or responsibility for the bridge that just fell into the Mississippi river.</p>
<p>Did you know that our great senator used to be a Democrat.  I&#8217;m sure he will be once again as soon as he gets a whiff of the political winds.  Very ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocky</title>
		<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-589227</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/#comment-589227</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why does Mr. Franken think it’s ridiculous spending a day debating something as important as MoveOn.org’s defamation of a commanding general in wartime?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because:
The advertisement was in no way &lt;a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/defaming" rel="nofollow"&gt;defamatory&lt;/a&gt;.  It isn't defaming if the criticism is true, and in this case, it is &lt;a href="https://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;demonstrably true&lt;/a&gt;;
It's wartime, and topic "a" is an advertisement in the New York Times, not the war, not the troops, not stridently working on a practical political compromise (to whit, how can we expect the Maliki government to reach a grand compromise if we can't?));
The continued reliance by the radical right wing of the republican party on hashing and rehashing a partisan grassroots level organization advertisement is wearing thin, to the point of becoming a hostile act, possibly even treasonous (we are at War!).
Spending time debating this is an absurd waste of resources, and it would be laughable were 160,000 of &lt;b&gt;our&lt;/b&gt; troops not in harm's way.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Why should Mr. Franken get away with not speaking out against a radical fringe organization after they’ve accused Gen. Petraeus of lying?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Al isn't &lt;em&gt;getting away&lt;/em&gt; with anything.  His op-ed was in response to an advertisement run by Norm Colman a day or two after the Senate voted to condemn Move On, attacking him &lt;em&gt;because he was not joining in the condemnation&lt;/em&gt; (for those of you keeping score at home, this is Franken not getting away with it).  However, MoveOn is not a radical fringe organization, nor did they not fully substantiate all of the claims in the ad.  You've linked to the page on their web site, as I do above, with their fully-attributed and documented claim.  Go back and look at it again... the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Your next fisk is the best part, though, because you shoot yourself in the foot saying "Would Franken stay silent if a Republican called Hillary a liar? Of [course -&lt;em&gt;ed.&lt;/em&gt;]he wouldn’t stay silent nor would anyone expect him to."  Setting up the classic &lt;a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;straw man&lt;/a&gt; analysis requires parallel examples in the analogy.  The better phrasing of this argument would have been "if a republican called Admiral Fallon a liar," in reference to Fallon's statement that Petraeus was an "ass-kissing chickenshit."  But what is delicious, to borrow your term, is that you chose a &lt;em&gt;highly political&lt;/em&gt; example because either you agree that Petraeus is a political figure, as anyone who undertakes water-carrying for the White House would be, or it just naturally came out due to subconscious thoughts or feelings that only a good therapist and several years on the couch could uncover.  I don't think it's the latter.

But being intellectually honest, you have to look at Al Franken's stand on the issues, &lt;a href="http://www.alfranken.com/pages/iraq/" rel="nofollow"&gt;particularly Iraq&lt;/a&gt; before you say he "hasn’t shown even a slight interest in defeating the jihadists or in securing the Middle East."  Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean his stand is ill-conceived or he has not given serious consideration to his position.  Not knowing what you're talking about betrays your partisan position as superior to all else.  Gary Gross is as guilty of mouthing anti-democratic talking points as he accuses Franken of likewise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why does Mr. Franken think it’s ridiculous spending a day debating something as important as MoveOn.org’s defamation of a commanding general in wartime?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because:<br />
The advertisement was in no way <a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/defaming" rel="nofollow">defamatory</a>.  It isn&#8217;t defaming if the criticism is true, and in this case, it is <a href="https://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html" rel="nofollow">demonstrably true</a>;<br />
It&#8217;s wartime, and topic &#8220;a&#8221; is an advertisement in the New York Times, not the war, not the troops, not stridently working on a practical political compromise (to whit, how can we expect the Maliki government to reach a grand compromise if we can&#8217;t?));<br />
The continued reliance by the radical right wing of the republican party on hashing and rehashing a partisan grassroots level organization advertisement is wearing thin, to the point of becoming a hostile act, possibly even treasonous (we are at War!).<br />
Spending time debating this is an absurd waste of resources, and it would be laughable were 160,000 of <b>our</b> troops not in harm&#8217;s way.</p>
<blockquote><p>Why should Mr. Franken get away with not speaking out against a radical fringe organization after they’ve accused Gen. Petraeus of lying?</p></blockquote>
<p>Al isn&#8217;t <em>getting away</em> with anything.  His op-ed was in response to an advertisement run by Norm Colman a day or two after the Senate voted to condemn Move On, attacking him <em>because he was not joining in the condemnation</em> (for those of you keeping score at home, this is Franken not getting away with it).  However, MoveOn is not a radical fringe organization, nor did they not fully substantiate all of the claims in the ad.  You&#8217;ve linked to the page on their web site, as I do above, with their fully-attributed and documented claim.  Go back and look at it again&#8230; the evidence is pretty overwhelming.</p>
<p>Your next fisk is the best part, though, because you shoot yourself in the foot saying &#8220;Would Franken stay silent if a Republican called Hillary a liar? Of [course -<em>ed.</em>]he wouldn’t stay silent nor would anyone expect him to.&#8221;  Setting up the classic <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html" rel="nofollow">straw man</a> analysis requires parallel examples in the analogy.  The better phrasing of this argument would have been &#8220;if a republican called Admiral Fallon a liar,&#8221; in reference to Fallon&#8217;s statement that Petraeus was an &#8220;ass-kissing chickenshit.&#8221;  But what is delicious, to borrow your term, is that you chose a <em>highly political</em> example because either you agree that Petraeus is a political figure, as anyone who undertakes water-carrying for the White House would be, or it just naturally came out due to subconscious thoughts or feelings that only a good therapist and several years on the couch could uncover.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the latter.</p>
<p>But being intellectually honest, you have to look at Al Franken&#8217;s stand on the issues, <a href="http://www.alfranken.com/pages/iraq/" rel="nofollow">particularly Iraq</a> before you say he &#8220;hasn’t shown even a slight interest in defeating the jihadists or in securing the Middle East.&#8221;  Just because he doesn&#8217;t agree with you doesn&#8217;t mean his stand is ill-conceived or he has not given serious consideration to his position.  Not knowing what you&#8217;re talking about betrays your partisan position as superior to all else.  Gary Gross is as guilty of mouthing anti-democratic talking points as he accuses Franken of likewise.</p>
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		<title>By: Carlos</title>
		<link>http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-588583</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.californiaconservative.org/liberals/fisking-frankens-op-ed/#comment-588583</guid>
		<description>"Would Franken stay silent if a Republican called Hillary a liar?"

Well, of course he would!  He's a fair and balanced kind of guy, isn't he?

BTW, I've effectively said many times Ms. Clinton is a liar, and I'm sure someone (like Rocky or Benn, maybe?) would love to call me on it, but I'd be more than happy to debate the subject with Mr. Franken.  Note, please, that the subject would be whether Ms. Clinton is a liar, not whether GW, Cheney, Petraeus or anyone else (inluding Mr. Franken) is a liar also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Would Franken stay silent if a Republican called Hillary a liar?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, of course he would!  He&#8217;s a fair and balanced kind of guy, isn&#8217;t he?</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;ve effectively said many times Ms. Clinton is a liar, and I&#8217;m sure someone (like Rocky or Benn, maybe?) would love to call me on it, but I&#8217;d be more than happy to debate the subject with Mr. Franken.  Note, please, that the subject would be whether Ms. Clinton is a liar, not whether GW, Cheney, Petraeus or anyone else (inluding Mr. Franken) is a liar also.</p>
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